Quindi sono andato di recente in vendita concordato su una casa e ho fatto un geometra a guardarla. Mi ha detto che la schiuma spray è un grosso problema e molto probabilmente non sarò in grado di ottenere un’assicurazione in casa e forse nessuna ipoteca.
Sono tornato dall’acquirente per chiedere loro di correggere il problema mentre amo la casa stessa.
Qualcuno ha avuto affari come questo prima? Un mio amico mi ha detto a meno che non pagheranno per essere completamente rifatto, allontanarmi da casa … ma adoro la casa.
https://i.redd.it/pdsxbbv16zze1.jpeg
di EoghanSM
49 commenti
Out of curiosity what’s the problem with it?
What is the actual problem with it as its in many houses these days ? And did he offer any remedies for the issue ?
€5k would get rid of it I reckon. Is it worth walking away from? Are there other bidders?
Uh, aren’t they supposed to leave the timbers exposed so they can breath?
If it’s done correctly, there should be a ventilation gap between the roof and insulation. The colour of the timbers looks a bit off but I’m no expert.
There’s a big controversy in the UK about this at the moment with banks refusing to issue mortgages on properties where this has been done badly. It can block off the airflow, preventing the roof from drying out and causing the wood to rot.
There was a big push for this in New England. It was part of an energy savings plan. Now we’re trying to dig it out of our attics. Roof rot! Our homes are older with all wood construction. This crap did a number on our homes.
This looks like it was done when spray foam first came out which lead to big issues around rotting wood.
Modern day spray foam is open cell which allows breath ability and there are cards inserted between rafters to allow breathing room between it and slates and no contact with timber.
Most is bought as seen. Someone else might buy it
I wouldn’t touch any sort of spray foam if I was buying a house.
It’s got such a bad reputation that if you ever sell it will probably put people off even if it doesn’t have issues.
Better just left alone whether it is certified or not.
I would skip out buying this altogether if I didn’t get a steep discount. Who knows how long its been like that? Roofs cost a fortune replace if they go wrong.
Do not buy that. The roof is fucked and you won’t get insurance on it, for good reason too. You’ve essentially got a hotbox up there. All the heat and moisture from the living space goes into the roof and then is supposed to vent out because the attic is a breathable space. Spray foam makes it not breathable so you have a hot and moist attic that will promote mould and rot timber.
Do not buy anywhere with an attic that looks like that.
Yeah they’ll have to do the whole roof 😬 hard get a mortgage on it
If you hear any clicking noises just stand really still and don’t make a sound. This looks like an abandoned house from the last of us…
Lots of houses have spray foam. I haven’t heard of an epidemic of unsellable houses because of this.
I got spray foam put in my attic in 2020. There’s a breather card installed behind it. I’ve never had any issues, but it’s been on my mind to replace it in years to come just because you never really know what’s going on behind there.
Can you just ask the seller to cut away a slice of the foam so as to expose a few timbers?
At the end of the day, surveyors go hard on any issues with the house so as to cover themselves. But the only parties who can really give you an answer are banks and insurance companies.
Depends on the foam type I think. Some foams are breathable. I wonder if you can ask the current owner who did the work and ask them about the foam type?
Oh no….
Hopefully they left a membrane between the spray and the wood so it’s easier to remove.
Sometimes people don’t think about repair and removal when installing things though.
Good luck OP.
Do not buy it in that condition. Who ever did that job is a pure cowboy.
Bad idea roof needs to breed
In UK people were getting grants to spray foam their attics a number of years ago and now must pay thousands to remove it because of the damage to timber work. No help for them to do this.
OP you should read this article, the UK are about 5 years ahead of us and now some homeowners roofs are rotting and collapsing because of cowboy spray foam installations where they didnt install a vent card to help the rafters breathe.
[https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/12/they-encouraged-us-to-insulate-our-home-now-its-unmortgageable](https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/12/they-encouraged-us-to-insulate-our-home-now-its-unmortgageable)
Anyway given you really want this house I wouldn’t let it stop you buying it but I think in the current sellers market you are going to have to suck up the cost of removing it yourself. I think if you put it on the seller in this market they will just walk away from you as a buyer and move on to the next bidder. From the sellers perspective he sees nothing wrong with the foam and it helped made his house warm. So if you go trying to get money off he will just see you as a chancer trying to haggle the price after the final bid and he will likely either put it back on the market or get the estate agent to approach the under bidder and ask them to up their bid to match your sale agreed price. And this can all be done behind your back in a few hours and the next thing you know is your solicitor is ringing you with some very bad news.
As you can see from the article above spray foam costs about twice as much to remove than it does to install. So Id budget about €5k if its a 3 bed semi, more if bigger than that. Not a nice hit I know but if this is your dream house then €5k in the grand scheme of things shouldnt stop you from going ahead and buying it. In ten years time you’ll be happy in your new home and that €5k will be negligible compared to living in a nice home that meets all your requirements.
Howdy OP,
My own experience wasn’t completely unlike this, it wasn’t spray foam but the attic was very poorly ventilated and it was clearly causing mold and condensation.
In the end I had a structural engineer in to do some tests on the wood to verify that the wood was OK and it was surface mold which it was, I also had new ventilation put in the attic which a year later has largely solved this issue.
I would highly suggest you get a dedicated structural engineer to go in and check the wood and yes, they’ll need to dig that foam out to do that.
As the buyer you’re entirely within your rights to request access to do this, but if they say no, I strongly suggest you walk because it likely means they know something you don’t know
Reminds of a house in Dublin where someone bought an old house, thought it was a great idea to insulate it to bring up the BER and all the wood rotted. If they fix it and a professional says it’s ok then maybe but i would be so careful with that
Other option is get a quote to fix it properly, then take that plus 10k off your offer. I’ve seen it done
this is horribly done. timbers aren’t exposed and it looks like the foam goes all the way to the vents. you don’t know how long this has been this way and the wood is probably already rotting. you will just waste money on a re-survey as they will have a hard time rectifying that as it going to be next to impossible to bring back the wood to its old state where the cells could breathe.
you can try it out yourself — get some wood and foam, spray it, let it cure and try removing the foam from the wood. you will find it is impossible to do in a controlled environment and the wood is never the same. that’s just the wood, now how about the roof felt? and finally now translate that to an attic job where it’s tight and backbreaking
I’ve done this for a few years and left the industry cause some employers are utter fucking cowboys. Dont give a shit about the customer and will fill you full of bullshit to keep you happy. Icynene is one of the worst to get. They apply foam straight to the roof and tell you its 100% breathable when its not. I would also get up in the attic with a ruler and check how much foam you have vs what you actually paid for. My last employer no matter who it was EVERYBODY got 3″ of foam and that was it. Now that being said. If done correctly they’re should be vent cards. PLASTIC vent cards with small holes in them and this does allow the foam and the rafters to breath as there should be at least a minimum 2″ gap behind the vent card to the felt on your roof and also they’re should be a crossover jointed vent card to allow the air to travel from one side to the other. The vent cards should down to your wall plate and sealed there with the foam to allow it to be air tight. I have tried to do my job properly and give people the right advise but like I said fucking cowboys!! There’s unreal money to be mate with insulation so it doesn’t surprise me one bit that every cunt is trying to do it and its not even fucking regulated properly in this country its and absolute joke!
I am doing a loft conversion at the minimum and the engineer warned me against spray on insulation, he said the reason is because it causes timber rot as most roofs are cold roofs and they need ventilation. That’s why in the building regs is specified you need 50mm gap between the top of your insulation and the roof tiles membrane, it keeps the timber dry and creates a gap that condensation can’t cross. Imagine you have warmish, doesn’t take a lot in contact with a roof that potentially -5c that’s rot. After all my research into building regs there is no mention of spray on foam so that is why the lenders won’t lend. The sellers may have to get rid of it to sell their house. You need to ask them if they are prepared to do that.
Also, based on that photo, the ceiling insulation is pushed right up to the fascia guttering area of the roof, this is also a silly thing to do. Personally the spray on insulation needs completely removed and the roof needs to be inspected properly and that’s gonna cost money.
What idiot builder did this.
It’s like something a child would do.
Looks exactly like what we had. We spent 4 months, blood sweat and tears taking it out ourselves as we couldn’t remortgage otherwise.
Was worth the work as roof was in great condition and remortgage was approved after a resurvey.
Surveyor was telling us of another house who had it put in and certified and we’re still refused a mortgage.
Not an easy job and we were maybe lucky but worth it.
Nothing wrong with getting it removed and having another full survey done on the condition underneath all the foam, the re survey will let you know if it’s OK or not.
People I know had spray foam done all over their bungalow and it’s a large space, well vented and absolutely zero mould or damp and that was 20 years ago
>….. but I love the house.
You do not love this house. You love what you thought was this house.
Im in the UK. A house over had a load of scaffolding erected and I assumed it was a solar installation. I was interested and had a great view from my office window. Then they started removing roof tiles which I then assumed it was a loft conversion. Then I saw the white sh!t surrounding all the roof structure and out came the hand saws to remove it. It took 2 days and must have cost quite a bit in labour. My advice is to run
See if the foam is open cell or closed cell. If it’s hard I think that means it’s closed cell and that’s an issue.
I live in the US and spray foam is fantastic if done right. I’m building a house and using spray foam in the hot humid south so I will be building a building envelope and roof structure amenable to spray foam.
Where spray foam is most improperly used is in retrofits.
Here’s a video from one of the best builders and building scientists, but worst geographers (you’ll see) in the US where he specifically looks at the use, or rather misuse of spray foam in houses in the UK during retrofits:
https://youtu.be/hCZgv4K5aTk?si=bnBAf4zUvqNWvT3d
Ask the owners who installed it.
Contact them and ask if 1) open or closed cell and 2) how was it installed.
Many pints needed for that surveyor. As much as you love the house, you’d be mad to stick with it, even if it’s removed.
UK banks have long decided their opinion on this stuff: it’s unmortgageable because you have no idea what condition the timber underneath is in.
I have no idea why Irish banks haven’t reached a similar conclusion.
I got my attic foam sprayed with open cell foam but it was sprayed onto cards stapled to the timbers.
It doesn’t look like this was done here.
Does it have a vent card and is it open cell foam.
If it has a vent card and its open cell foam its fine.
If it is sprayed directly onto the felt/tiles then yes if is a problem.
Edit – did surveyor say why it’s an issue??
Apologies for hijacking the comments. How can you tell if you have an air gap in your spray foam insulation?
Run far away unless you’ve another 30k in your back pocket
My house has foam insulation and an attic conversion. Before buying it three years ago, I had a separate BER assessment and a usual home inspection done by an engineer. Both the bank and my insurance provider were fully informed about these details at the time. Never had a single issue with any of them before or after the purchase.
BER Surveyor here. Likely same job as whoever told you this.
While not an issue atm, there are issues with selling and mortgaging houses that have spray foam in the UK and can spread here, since our houses are built the same.
The problem is that with spray foam there is supposed to be a ventilation layer between the felt and the foam, typically 5cm, with vents on the eaves and the ridge. However it is quite common to see these without it, and therefore your timber rafters cannot breathe. Cowboy traders just don’t bother, because it is extra time getting the ventilation sharking cards installed, can also be fiddly. This just causes the timber to be choked and suffer from rot. Timber has to breathe.
Also it is extremely difficult to prove that the ventilation layer is there, even if it is.
If anyone is getting insulation done on their roof DO NOT GO FOR SPRAY FOAM. If you are insulating your flat ceilings in the attic, top it up with wool insulation up to 300mm. If insulating rafters you can also use wool but it will be slightly more expensive. Alternatively use PIR boards. But remember to allow for ventilation of rafters.
Horrendous stuff, impossible to mortgage a property with spray foam in the UK and Ireland is going that way too.
Removal is easy enough but very labour intensive and hence very expensive.
There’s no telling what damage has been done to the timbers until it all comes off, if it’s been there a long time the roof structure could be totally fucked.
The stuff should be banned, put in by homeowners with good intentions that know no better
Does the insulation close to the eaves look a bit wet in the picture?
Is there any paperwork to back up the installation?
Could a hole be drilled to see if there is a vent card/ ventilation present on the roof structure?
Hey op, there seems to be a hell of a lot of commenters the haven’t a breeze of what they’re talking about.
I would say with 99% confidence that’s open cell spray foam just judging by the depth.
Spray foam is an excellent insulator if sprayed correctly using a vent card spaced 50mm from the felt . If the house /roof was constructed in the last 20 years you’ll have a breathable membrane as felt. This along with a vent card will see no issues with your roof whatsoever. However if applied to the old bitumen type felt issues as mentioned above will arise.
Closed cell is a much higher density foam and sprayed not nearly as deep as open cell, 1” closed cell is the equivalent of 4” of open cell.
Due to the price of closed cell over open cell very rare to see anything over 2” in depth being applied. Standard depth for open cell is 6” (150mm)
It would be very easy to inspect if was installed correctly, I most definitely would look into this if it was a property I was keen on, unlike others telling you to run a mile from it while having no information 🤔
That’s a UK mortgage nono
OP, in this market, you have to ask yourself if this is worth the 100 grand delay?
Yes, the seller is fucking you over a barell. No, that is not 100 grand worth of work that you will pay buying later.