Circa il 27% della popolazione della Svizzera è costituito da residenti stranieri la cui demografia è pesantemente ponderata verso la più alta fascia d’età delle imposte nette (carriera medie).
Nessuno di questi residenti stranieri ha il diritto di votare in Svizzera (quindi, privati del diritto), motivo per cui sono sempre più soggetti a politiche punitive apparentemente progettate per estrarre il raccolto massimo dai loro sforzi, per dare, non a quelli bisognosi, ma per fare la doccia delle generazioni più ricche nella storia del paese con i regali extra.
Sto parlando dello stipendio del 13 ° mese per i pensionati. I premi assicurativi sanitari indipendenti dall’età, che sono aumentati ancora una volta sostanzialmente quest’anno (in alcuni punti a doppia cifra).
Nel frattempo, come in molti altri paesi in Europa, il sentimento generale nei confronti dei lavoratori stranieri tra coloro che spesso beneficiano di più di detto immigrazione è spesso molto negativo. "Stanno prendendo il nostro lavoro. Stanno spingendo i prezzi delle case. Stanno cambiando le cose, ecc".
Al contrario, senti poco su come "Stanno finanziando il nostro sistema di welfare. Stanno sovvenzionando le nostre assistenza sanitaria e le nostre pensioni. Stanno popolando la nostra economia produttiva. Ci stanno salvando dalle conseguenze del crollo della popolazione, ecc.".
Chiaramente si verifica un commercio molto consapevole tra residenti stranieri che lavorano e cittadini svizzeri in pensione/economicamente inattivi che sono ovviamente del tutto consensuale e nella maggior parte dei casi goduti (altrimenti ci sarebbe un esodo di rappresentanti di entrambe le controparti).
Ma a che punto è questo apparentemente altamente unilaterale e implacabile raccolta fiscale di stranieri senza diritto di voto diventa troppo? Vedo solo questa dinamica "peggioramento" mentre i dati demografici si spostano ulteriormente nella vecchiaia. Non vedo cambiamenti elettorali, ad esempio abilitando B/c per consentire a Hodlers di votare presto.
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di VsfWz
33 commenti
Anyone who can’t see how Switzerland benefits hugely from immigration is either biased or plain stupid
6 years ago it was that.
At some point shit will hit the fan. What you are saying here is true. And most people are just not aware of the economics of this country. Or in general.
Are you Swiss? Yes-> you can vote. No-> you can not vote. Anything else is wrong.
[deleted]
My opinion as a foreigner:
Permit holders will never get the vote – it’s too conservative here to change that.
The answer you will most likely get from the Swiss is – if you don’t like it, leave.
At the end of the day, even if my taxes went up I’d still be better off financially by staying here than going back to where I came from.
Immigrants are an easy target for blame on a country’s issues – see the USA, UK and Germany.
I’m all for more residents having voting power, I’m also certain this wouldn’t change anything to what you are describing.
Immigration isn’t equal to immigration. Not all immigrants are as profitable for switzerland as your graph shows
Disenfranchised yes, but most of them chose so. Most of the German and European Expats could become Swiss, but many don’t want to. I applied as soon as I was legally allowed to.
This is not a new ‘issue’. Every country has this and this has been a topic of debate since historiographically whenever globalization started.
it is clear that Switzerland (as a system) benefits from controlled immigration for the simple reason that if it was otherwise , immigration would have been much more limited. And I am not talking about the recent phase (since 15 years) with the easier permits for EU-citizens but also for the status before, where it was still possible, to obtain a permit.
However if we want to be a bit objective, you have 2 major flaws in your whole arguments.
First of all, about the right to vote. Anyone can apply for citizenship after living here for 10 years (as long as they fulfill some pretty basic requirements). This is not the UAE where you will never ever get citizenship. So after this mark, people are not foreigners.
Secondly, someone could make an argument, that the taxes paid by previous generations, financed the infrastructure which we use today, so at the end it’s a win win for both ‘generations’. The same way that taxes paid today also build infrastructure for future generations.
I often have the feeling that the purpose of posts like yours (“they owe us”) is just to trigger/provoke people instead of generate some fruitful discussion.
Anyway just as a disclaimer, I am not Swiss.
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But in Switzerland, you contribute to your own pension from what I know. So you aren’t bankrolled by other people’s taxes unless you work for the government.
I could be wrong or misunderstanding something here though.
I am a foreigner here and while voting would be nice, I understand the idea of working towards it through naturalization. Honestly, much better to have it like that than to risk having issues like in Germany or Swedistan.
Why are you here if you are disenfranchised? There has to be something that is better to make you stay and maybe that thing is like that, because the Swiss don’t let anyone vote without integrating first.
Foreigner here (soon Swiss). It’s the deal. When coming here you know it. You have access to a way better life quality vs 99% of the world.
High paying jobs, strong currency, working public services, security, amazing landscapes, clean country and so on.
No voting rights, not a problem. How many countries are allowing foreigners to vote ?
I globally paid ~100K/y in Taxes. Gladly doing it.
If I am not happy, I can move. Nobody is forcing G/B/C permits to come work in Switzerland.
expat here. CH has low taxes. What do i care if it’s being spent on pensioners? It’s your choice.
Also not all foreigners are bankrolling this country. I live in an area with a lot of what seems to be asylum seekers and their children (I’m not 100% sure though). According to existing statistics published in other refugee-welcoming countries is that they would be taking a lot more than they are giving back.
I’m foreign and I understand their policy.
We are visitors, we have a way to get proper citizenship, we should follow that way.
But what I hear is: “I don’t want to get citizenship, because I have to pay for the military”, which means that he doesn’t want the citizenship because he doesn’t want to be accountable to all the responsibilities that being a citizen entails, but wants the right to vote. Sorry but no. That’s not how it works.
Yes the Swiss people benefits from my taxes, but I benefit from the high income. That’s our agreement. When the time comes that I can become a full fledged citizen then I will think if it is the right move, until then I honor my agreement while the Swiss people honor theirs.
Well it’s rather obvious that this isn’t tenable and will one day come crashing down. But until enjoy boomers the fruits of my labour that you steal from me.
I give an alternative solution to giving free vote to non-nationals: supporting young Swiss generation better, allow them to reach stability in their canton of origin without having to compete with literally half of Europe and beyond for qualified jobs.
Perhaps you we will then face less emigration (yes, Swiss do emigrate for better job conditions) and more young Swiss starting family sooner.
Also, I predict a drastic reduction of workplaces due to AI incoming, which will need our western economies to be re-designed anyways. But that’s a much larger topic.
Perhaps the solution lies in making the citizenship process more flexible. A ten-year residency requirement feels excessive, and the multi-step path – B permit → C permit → citizenship – is unnecessarily complex. If that were adjusted, then it would only be fair that the right to vote remain exclusively with Swiss citizens.
Can you explain what you mean by “punitive policies” against foreigners? Because the 13th AHV month is paid by everyone, it’s not based on nationality. You’re conjuring up discrimination where there is none. Also, is there a country where foreigners can vote? Afaik, it’s always tied to citizenship. I’ve lived in 4 countries outside Switzerland and was never allowed to vote, nor did I expect to.
Either way, if you are commited to staying here, just go through the process of becoming a citizen. Then you can vote.
Also, just because you’re between 30 and 40 doesn’t mean you’re a top taxpayer. Occupation, education etc. play a role. Reducing it to age is a massive simplification. And while immigrants are beneficial to the Swiss economy as a whole, those immigrants also benefit. It’s a good deal for both.
Most of them are German or French. That is the peculiar thing about Switzerland. Others would love to have that problem.
>Clearly there is a very conscious trade occurring between working foreign residents and retired/economically inactive Swiss nationals which is obviously entirely consensual and in most cases enjoyed (else there would be an exodus of representatives of both counterparties).
Correct, it is a conscious trade that both parties agree to. It’s a relationship that benefits both sides.
>But at what point does this apparently highly one-sided, relentless tax harvesting of disenfranchised foreigners become too much?
You make it sound as Switzerland appeared in a vacuum and now suddenly some within it are privileged for no reason while others are “tax harvested” and disenfranchised. The society and economy that allows the foreign residents to earn good wages and live in a safe prosperous society in the present moment was very much not built in the lifetime of a foreigner or by their ancestors. It is a country that was built by a group of people, built for themselves and their descendants, not for the whole world. That the current generation decides to welcome more people in to share in the prosperity in exchange for their labor does not change the historic context. It is not a human right to inherit the birthright of strangers.
Go home and vote as much as you want.
You just come to Switzerland, get the “big” salary, and now complain about random stuff.
Should Swiss pensioners send you a letter every year? And say how good you are, and how lucky they are?
I am foreigner
Hi there. I think I’m exactly the kind of immigrant you’re talking about. 41, with a good income and no voting right.
I disagree with you entirely.
I don’t feel like I am bankrolling someone’s pension more than any other country. Heck, I even feel that I am doing it less than I was back in my home country where a special class of people get “special pensions” worth way more than what they contributed. I would prefer a system where we each get only what we contributed, but I don’t think such a system exists in Europe.
I don’t feel like I am bankrolling the education system more than any other childless person is.
When it comes to health care, I actually feel here the least like I am bankrolling anyone else compared to any country I lived in. I love your health insurance system. It’s not perfect, but it’s so much better than anything else I encountered.
Now, let’s talk about what people complain about.
I bought a house so I contributed to price increases. Though I feel your easygoing credit system accounts for like 90% of price increases.
I know plenty of cases of my countrymen coming here to do menial jobs in agriculture or construction and are basically treated like slaves. If they were not desperate for any job, I they would not accept such conditions, and without the cost reduction, sure, those jobs might go to locals. But are there enough unemployed locals to make that viable? I don’t know the job market well here.
Changing stuff? I’m doing my best not to. But heck, I moved here because I fell in love with the place. I want the village I live in to stay swiss. Even if everyone moving there would want to integrate, at some point, it would stop being swiss if too many foreigners moved there. And trust me, most immigrants I’ve met in other countries don’t look to get integrated. Be they Indian, Romanian, Kenyan, or Brittish.
You knew that before coming here, so don’t complain about it. We benefit from qualified immigration (residence of other European Countries), which we, the Swiss, tend to have in abundance. You didn’t come here for goodwill. You came to my country because of the economic benefits it gives you. If you want to have a say, get your citizenship, embrace Swiss culture, and vote, or fuck off. Nobody forces you to live here. Thousands of people would love to be in your privileged situation.
As a foreigner: not a smart take.
-if you dont like it, leave
– asking you to integrate is a very valide request. It is absolutely possible and if successful, the locals respect you very much
– you get the right to live here. Thats a better life than we will have than most of the upperclass people from the countries we come from. Thats more than you can and one should ask for
– you dont finance “their” system, you finance where you live and profit from day to day. So you finance your own wellbeing
As a foreigner, I see Switzerland as a very transactional society.
So I’ve adopted that mindset. We use each other, and as long as I see that deal as beneficial, I’m going to stick around.
Racist ignorant fucks are, ignorant, shocker. I was called an Auslander while wearing my “Tenu A” in the army at a restaurant in basel by the person taking my order under her breath. I would of understood it more if I wasn’t white with blue eyes or i wasn’t speaking german with her. If that’s a reaction in a city i can’t even imaging what it’s like in the Grisons’ country side.
Why the **fuck** should we allow *foreigners* to vote ? We fucking shouldn’t decide for our own country ?
And stop pretending it’s a one way street, these immigrants are getting a very sweet deal, they get 2-3 times the salary they’d get elsewhere and get ot live in a very safe country built by us and our parents and grandparents.
I don’t think it is wrong that the Swiss ‘exploit’ immigrants who willingly come and stay here. The rules are clear in Switzerland, it is one of the many things I like. That who comes here knows what you are saying I’m advance. I am probably one of those ‘qualified immigrants’ who pays and does not vote, but in return I have a very high standard of living. Best regards.
I’d like you to tell me what/how many countries let foreigners vote in national elections? Because it sure is very far from a majority. And 10 years of living in Switzerland + a bare minimum of integration and language competencies is really not too much to ask (40k a year naturalization goes to show you that it far from impossible). And immigrants, according to you, don’t get old and will never draw any money from the public pension system? And some immigrant demographics definitely don’t have a higher unemployment rate than Swiss citizens and are less dependant on welfare than Swiss citizens. And most of all, they don’t come here out of their own free will and definitely would not have been able to understand what they were getting themselves into before coming here. And by the way, you don’t have to like everything about Switzerland, we are by far not perfect, but you want people to be able to vote on our future that might leave in 1-2 years?
As an auslander here, this is how it should be. Look around outside of Switzerland for a minute and you will see why rules like this exist. Don’t want some massive Islam community able to cast votes in a small village like they can in the UK.
I mean, voting is pretty much the only thing that sets the Swiss apart from long-term residents anymore and, at least to me, is the defining factor of being a national of any democracy. If you give the vote to all long-term residents then there is no reason for them to get citizenship. This is already the case for EU nationals who often happily spend 20-30 years here but feel no reason to get citizenship. Additionally, swiss men have an obligation to serve so now you’re just actively disadvantaged by becoming swiss if you’re a man 18-35. Again, people already actively put off getting citizenship specifically to avoid the tax/service. The bar is also, generally, not that high to get citizenship here. For language for example, we require only B1 level of fluency in a local language. Hungary requires C1 in Hungarian for example.
I also don’t believe these people are disenfranchised. I believe disenfranchising requires depriving someone of the right to vote. You can’t deprive someone of a right they never had.
With the exception of some special agreements between the UK and some commonwealth nations, I don’t know any country that allows a blanket right to vote for non-citizens.
I wasn’t for the 13th AHV, I’m a young guy so I know I’m paying for it and I know the issue is that young people just don’t vote whole old people do and in the end they’re who benefit. But that’s the system here, I resent the idiots that are too lazy to vote, not the system that let me vote myself. I’m also not sympathetic to long-term foreign residents who never felt the need to naturalise until one of the votes actually affected them. Sure, 40% of the 30-40 age group are foreigners but that means 60% are swiss and are also bankrolling the AHV reform.
I hate to be the one saying it, but really, if it’s so bad here then nothing is stopping anyone from leaving. If you do like it here on the whole but want to contribute to change, get naturalised and vote with us!