Se l’Ucraina si arrendesse e cedesse il territorio, ciò non renderebbe sprecate le vite degli ucraini che hanno combattuto e sono morti per la loro libertà?
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di JohnDoe0073
Se l’Ucraina si arrendesse e cedesse il territorio, ciò non renderebbe sprecate le vite degli ucraini che hanno combattuto e sono morti per la loro libertà?
https://i.redd.it/6p1b9kbhtz5g1.jpeg
di JohnDoe0073
26 commenti
No, not at all. Heroes will always be heroes.
But it will plant the seeds for other upcoming conflicts and deaths.
Fighting for freedom = our country not being taken by russian scums.
Giving up some parts of land ≠ losing battle for freedom.
Pls note, that this comments is neither political, nor discusses an opinion on any EU/USA “peace plans”.
Edit: spelling.
Only the Ukranians have the final say on that, but it’s certainly my take.
If the Ukrainian statehood remains, and does not become a Russian puppet, even with the loss of some territory. And the family and friends of our fallen can live in peace. Their sacrifice will never be wasted.
I have fought in this war for 3 years, and I am watching the state of the front-lines across the country and it is heartbreaking.
I am incredibly disappointed in the west, they need to be directly involved (I say this as a foreign volunteer)
Russia is not strong, Russia is just stronger than Ukraine due to a massive population difference.
It’s time NATO shows Russia why they still exist.
Ukraine should not give up any territory for a peace that will not last, and for deals that others will ignore. Russia is just trying to stop the war on their terms, AND conscript more people/steal more resources to do it again in the near future.
Not being able to save everything doesn’t make saving something worthless.
Even if Ukraine can’t achieve a full victory, those who have fought and died for Ukraine have still saved millions from Russian tyranny.
What the Ukrainian soldiers show to their country mates and themself is that they are an indépendant nation. Their blood created the cement of their nation. In 1870 the French loses the war against Germany bit paved the way of a notion of what is the Nation and what we fight for. And lead to the fighting spirit of 1914.
The only part I m afraid is when this heroes will be back in the society they will meet after years indifference and cowardice of people who have refused to fight for it. An I hope they will reap the fruit of economic growth in the coming years. But history have often showed that it’s not the case unfortunately.
The world is proud of Ukraine for their fight. The world is pissed off with the US and Europe for being cowards and not supporting Ukraine even though that was promised in 2014. Never Surrender (Winston Churchill)! I’d rather fight for my country and die then give up and live under Russian rule.
The line is not further west because the Ukrainian heroes fought back. But they fought for the whole country
Ukrainian heroes do more than defend Ukraine’s borders and territories.
Every day, Ukrainians hold the line to prevent a wave of death, rape, and mutilation from reaching more innocent Ukrainians.
I will view this war as a Ukrainian victory as long as Ukraine receives real security guarantees like NATO membership in exchange for peace, but Donbas will always be rightfully Ukrainian regardless of what any document says.
(I am non-Ukrainian, take my perception as you will)
One cannot provide an answer to your question. You say surrender, you say gives up territory… There’s a universe of difference between giving up claims on Crimea or surrendering all lands tomorrow.
Ukrainian heroes – and those in the International Legions – have fought and sacrificed and as a result, the Russians ***failed*** in taking Ukraine, they ***failed*** in taking Donbas.
Russia took Pokrovsk, but compared to the Kramatorsk-Sloviansk fortress, Pokrovsk was an easy target. Russia has no way of taking the cities due to their lack of integrated offensive doctrine and long-term planning. Russia ***wants*** to make peace now because Ukraine has a massive advantage in Kramatorsk-Sloviansk and Moscow knows it.
Long story short: **NO,** the sacrifice isn’t for nothing. And personally I want to resist emotional framing like this because what must take priority is Ukraine’s **strategic position** at the end of the war instead of moral/emotional framing.
Without the sacrifices made by the defenders of Ukraine the whole of Ukraine would have been in Russian hands since day one of the invasion.
Put it this way, if they didn’t, it would’ve been much worse.
Ukraine will become a nation-state in the true sense, no longer living in the shadow of the Soviet collapse. Russia wants to prove that Ukraine is part of them, but ironically, it has instead created a more unified and distinct Ukraine.
Not so much as they killed many putinists
Sum cost fallacy in a way
As a Ukrainian I can tell it would certainly feel so. We’re very territorial. Our land is important to us. Generations of our ancestors bled and are buried in this land to keep it ours. We mourn our fallen, even if we’ve never met them. Surrender is unacceptable to me. We’ll die before we kneel. It always has been this way, and it always will be.
Just to be clear, giving up the rest of Donbas is way, way worse than losing PURL and intelligence sharing. Besides, those are unlikely to be cancelled by Trump as it’s basically free money for Trump. Politically makes no sense.
Never.
Yes. And puts nearby countries in danger (knowing no one will come to help them when Russia invades).
If the result was a Ukraine that was sufficiently secure (in both it’s own military and ally guarantees) to be truly sovereign, with a credible deterrent against any future Russian invasion, then it would have been worth it. Even if territory is given away. However, that is not the peace agreement that’s on offer. The US is insisting Ukraine give up territory, reduce the size of it’s military, with no substantial security commitments from allies. This is basically a surrender and would force Ukraine to become a satellite of Russia similar to Belorus. Such an outcome would absolutely NOT be a tribute to the lives of the heroes that have been sacrificed.
That is one way to look at it but, every soldier has their own reasons for fighting. I’m sure some just want Ukraine to remain an independent nation free from Russia. Heros are heros though and I’m sure noone will ever forget the ultimate sacrifice so many have made Ukraine and how it could have been so much worse.
I certainly do not think the Russians and Ukrainians will ever be able to live in peace at this point.
Russia got enough land to bury their dead
Not wasted, never wasted. Their heroism prevented ruzzia from doing what it really wanted to: annexing all of Ukraine and erasing Ukrainian identity. That will now never happened because of their sacrifice.
My grandfather fought to keep Finland independent during WW2. We lost some land in a bitter peace. I would never say that his and his brothers in arms sacrifices were wasted.